Managing your MUSH Working Picnic #4 with Javelin!

Here's the log from the last picnic. Better late than never. Thanks to Jav for logging!

Êlvïrå clambers up onto the makeshift platform/stage thingy in the grove to rapturous applause
Judge Dredd mm. Pikelets and marmite.
Êlvïrå says, "well, a polite clap maybe"
Javelin applauds rapturously.
Impster has connected.
Êlvïrå says, "Good evening/afternoon everybody! Welcome to the fourth in the series of Managing your MUSH, a weekly event held right here on M*U*S*H"
Êlvïrå says, "good timing, Impster ;)"
Disraeli has connected.
Jonquil waves belatedly.
Êlvïrå says, "Ok. Tonight's guest speaker is Javelin who will be talking on the topic 'Good to Great for MUSH.' There will be time afterwards for questions and discussion."
Êlvïrå says, "logs will be put up on CPO shortly after the event. So without further ado, here's Javelin!"
Êlvïrå clapclapclap
Javelin stands up so his voice will carry, putting down his picnic turkey leg.
Ender claps, once. "For our Lord Javelin!"
Javelin says, "Thanks for coming. So. Good to Great is a book by Jim Collins. It's the report of a study of 11 companies that went from pretty average outcomes - measured by stock prices - to extraordinary outcomes over a long period of time, and 17 similar others that didn't."
Javelin says, "I want to talk about what Collins's group found that distinguished these companies, and how it might apply to MUSHes."
Javelin says, "First, the companies had what Collins calls "level 5 leadership" during their time of becoming great. A Level 5 leader, in overly brief terms, is an executive blending personal humility and professional will to focus on their ambitions for the organization, not themselves."
Javelin says, "The relevance to mush management here is pretty obvious. I think most MUSHes recognize capable individuals, develop them into team members, and train them for competent management. Many have effective visionary leadership. But the great caution here is to watch out for effective leaders who see the game as primarily their own ego-fulfillment, without that higher calling to the MUSH itself and the humility to share the opportunity to contribute - to "own" - the game with all the players."
Javelin is sure we all have stories. Maybe even of cases were ego-fulfillment *did* serve the MUSH's good. Save 'em for the discussion. :)
Javelin says, "The second point about the good-to-great companies is that their leaders focused first on getting the right people around them - and getting rid of the wrong ones - and only then on the work of vision, strategy, etc. As Collins says, "First who, then what". The companies that didn't make it tended to be a genius leader and a thousand helpers, and imploded when the genius departed."
Elvira has disconnected.
SAVE: The database is mad as heck and isn't gonna take it any more! What made it so ticked off?
Javelin says, "Applying this to MUSH means some hard personnel decisions - harder if you're working with an existing mush than starting a new one, but hard all the same. Are the admins really the ones you want? What about the players?"
Javelin says, "Collins provides a 3-step model: (1) When in doubt, don't hire, keep looking; (2) when you know you need to make a people change, act; and (3) put your best people on your biggest opportunities, not your biggest problems."
Javelin can think of times when he's been guilty of violating each of those as a MUSH god in the past, and can think of times when he's followed those rules, and following them has given me better results.
Javelin says, "MUSH Gods really need to be able to work with their admin, and have to be firm - but not cruel - about making good hiring and firing decisions."
Javelin says, "Next point: The hedgehog concept. To go from good to great you must know three things: What are you deeply passionate about, what you can be the best in the world at, and what drives your economic engine."
Javelin says, "(He calls it he hedgehog concept based on the proverb that the fox knows a lot of little things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing)"
Javelin says, "Where those three all come together, you have a hedgehog concept, and that's what you should run with. And it's not about *stating* those things, it's about understanding them and facing up to them."
Javelin says, "For MUSH admin and players, figuring out what you're passionate about is usually pretty easy. What you can be the best in the world at requires more thought and study."
Javelin says, "The economic engine sticks out at a weird angle here for noncommercial games, but you can think of it as trying to answer the question of how you could objectively measure your game's success. Number of active players per month might work. Although I'd really like to see us measure success in units of fun (has anyone ever tried to work out player satisfaction per tinyplot as a metric? If so, tell us in the discussion!)"
Javelin says, "The book also has a chapter about technology as an accelerator for companies. Basically, Collins advises that if the technology fits with your hedgehog concept, you should be a pioneer; otherwise, you should just apply it as well as everyone else. That may be applicable to things like coded systems or SQL integration or specialized clients. If that's really core to the passion, excellence, and fun, pioneer. If not, spend more time on the coRe, and less on the coDe."
Javelin says, "Finally, Collins points out that transformations from good to great are evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's not a single great leader, a defining moment, etc. It's a flywheel, where a lot of effort is required to get the thing slowly turning, but that eventually it whizzes around on its own. Skipping buildup and jumping straight to a breakthrough or major change usually is self-defeating."
Porthos wanders north into the foothills.
Porthos has left.
Porthos walks in from the foothills.
Porthos has arrived.
Cheetah has reconnected.
Javelin says, "So that's the very abbreviated summary of the main concepts of the book Good to Great, and a few initial thoughts on how they translate to issues in MUSH management. That ends the lecture bit. Now, who wants to talk about how those concepts apply -- or don't -- in their experience as players or administrators?"
Jonquil says, "For anyone who missed anything or arrives late I've a live version of the log available at http://theveiledkingdoms.com/log.php"
Javelin thx Jonquil.
Javelin extends a 4-foot straw down to his lemonade and takes a sip.
Ender thinks a moment.
Ender says, "I'll go if anyone isn't typing up hugeness."
Javelin says, "Go even if they are, their hugeness will wait. :)"
Ender grins. "I'm currently a Wizard on ST:DEC. Its a new game, supposedly in Beta. The transformation bit, the flywheel vs. the breakthrough is true in my experience. Building a game is a flywheel. It takes time, effort, and has a definite and gradual curve. You can't just grab the wheel and jerk it. Momentum must be built up."
Javelin nods. "I think that's a hard lesson for people who are starting up their first game to learn, in particular."
Ender says, "So, who's next?"
Javelin says, "It's actually kind of an advantage of doing open betas, starting a mush that's not "fully formed" and letting the players fix it up. Of course, that's got disadvantages too, if the players don't want to put up with that."
Jonquil says, "This is sort of obvious I suppose, though I don't think people do it because it's uncomfortable. Anyhow, related to the personnel decisions, I think it's important that you set expectations up front: explain to your potential staffers that their hiring or firing is not a personal thing, but will be based on what is best for the game. This is particularly true when hiring friends."
Impster says, "On of my builders was appologizing about the time frame they gave me to finish the grid. They thought another 6 weeks was to long. I ended up telling her I'd rather do it right then rushed."
Javelin says, "Re: Jonquil. Yeah. I vividly remember the first time I fired a staff member. It's hard. Most of us are not used to doing that in our regular lives either. It's not fun."
Javelin says, "And, of course, it feels like a failure on your part if you're the one who hired them in the first place."
Jonquil says, "And you feel like a heel if they take it badly. :-p"
Javelin says, "But if you're not in this for your ego alone, but for the MUSH and its community, sometimes you've gotta do something not personally fun in the short term."
Jonquil nods.
Nymeria says, "The thing I wonder about is how likely is to find someone who wants to run a MU* not for themselves but for the community. A business would have the profit side to balance the work, but I couldn't personally imagine putting the work into a MU* if I didn't expect to have it be fun for me too, and not just fun in the sense of running a game for others. :)"
Disraeli says, "yeah."
Javelin agrees, and so do the CEOs in the book, actually. "It's not that you shouldn't have fun - it's that your fun shouldn't be the end-all and be-all of the MUSH, above all else."
Disraeli says, "in fact, I think one reason my game is still going is because I like it so much. And if I didn't like it as much as I did, then I'd be the usual curmudgeon."
Ender says, "Usually that fun is found in creating a world and having it populated with other human beings."
Nymeria nods, "Absolutely, that's true."
Disraeli says, "The whole point is fun, at the end of the day."
Colputt says, "How do non-coder admins workout in a MUSH?"
Nymeria says, "Though I think that the day you stop having fun, you probably won't be a good admin any longer either."
Javelin thinks that one can have fun, and one can have a sense of achievement and contribution, and both are valid (but different)
Disraeli can put up with things I don't like, in exchange for the prospect of more fun in the future, sure
Nymeria says, "Ideally, both :)"
Tes walks in from the park to the south.
Tes has arrived.
Javelin has a quote for that, Nym...
Jonquil says, "Colputt, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking."
Disraeli says, "but when its no longer fun, I'm out of there. :p"
Ender wonders about Colputt's question
Colputt says, "It seems to me like most admins are code gurus."
Javelin says, "Robert Townsend, Avis rental's former CEO: If you can't do it excellently, don't do it at all. Because if it's not excellent it won't be profitable or fun, and if you'r enot in business for fun or profit, what the hell are you doing here?"
Javelin replaces profit with success and business with MUSH, and it works for him.
Javelin turns to Colputt.
Colputt says, "Can Non-coders admin successfully?"
Noltar says, "The majority of good admins on RP games I've known have not been code gurus."
Judge Dredd says, "If they can't, Colputt, I'm stuffed."
Ender believes so, Colputt, if they're doing administrative tasks, and not coding tasks.
Noltar says, "However, in recent years, the majority of people I know starting games, have been."
Javelin says, "Most admin here have historically not been coders. Almost none have been selected because they're coders."
Jonquil laughs and nods at Dredd.
Jonquil says, "Basic code knowledge is amazingly helpful, but even that is not a requirement if you ask me."
Nymeria says, "It depends on your aim for the game. If you want to do things that require code, you either need to code yourself or find reliable coders, and that can be hard."
Ender says, "So long as there are coders on staff who can deal with the code, then non-coders are free to administrate."
Ender says, "But do you mean 'admin,' or 'run a game as #1?'"
Noltar thinks the key to a successful game, it needs a mixture of admins who are passionate about the various aspects of a good game... code, plots, player relations, solid thematic documentation.
Javelin believes it's a very good idea to have several people (not just one!) who can code, but strongly discourages the hiring of admin whose only responsibility is code. Everyone in administration should be a people manager. (IMHO. YMMV. ETC.)
Starblade couldn't code his way out of a wet paper bag and has been a good admin and even a hw..and don't you coders dare show me how to get out of a wet paper bag code wise :)
Colputt says, "Admin, run it, keep it focused."
Cheetah has partially disconnected.
Tanaku has disconnected.
Judge Dredd says, "To be honest, Colputt, I've encountered more coders who shouldn't admin than the ones who should, though that might just be my experience."
Colputt says, "Me too, that is why I brought it up."
Javelin says, "Because people can play together and have fun and have excellent RP on IRC -- with no code at all -- if the MUSH is down for a day. But if the administration screws up the people issue, those people won't have fun (or will go elsewhere for their fun)."
Ender says, "Coding is not a requirement for people management. Even regular non-bitted players can 'admin' in that regard."
Judge Dredd has found, though, that by and large, the coders who can admin are *very* good at it. Just very few.
Jonquil says, "That's my experience as well, Dredd."
Javelin says, "Again, it's a hedgehog thing, though. Is code what your game is passionate about, best in the world at, and the key driver of fun? Ok, then everyone should be a hot coder."
Impster shrugs, "I still say a headwiz should either know abit about code, know where to ask about code, or trust the coder 99 percent. But a headwiz who doesn't know how to edit their mush.cnf is asking for trouble.
Javelin says, "If not, you need enough code skill to get along without bugging everyone here on +soft, and you should focus on the hedgehog part."
Javelin says, "Great question, Colputt. That got people going. :)"
Cuiorne says, "I doubt anyone can be a excellent coder and a excellent storyteller (GM)"
Judge Dredd has encountered two who can, Cuiorne.
Javelin has seen a few, Cuiorne.
Disraeli blinks at /that/
Cuiorne stands corrected :)
Ender nods. "Managers need to have interdisciplinary skills so that they know what they're managing. Coding is a discipline in MUSH.
Javelin says, "And those are both learnable skills. :)"
Colputt says, "I know of one"
Ender frowns, "Yes. They are. Its not an 'either or,' nor is it an 'us vs. them.'
Jonquil mostly fears the ones who can't do either. ;-)
Teech has arrived.
Impster says, "I think your best GMs, if they code, are going to be the best coders. Cause they know what code is going to get in the way of RP and what's not usually."
Jonquil says, "Live log for the late and/or curious: http://theveiledkingdoms.com/log.php"
Javelin says, "Another Townsend quote. Leaders should be: available, inclusive, humorous, fair, decisive, humble, objective, tough, effective, patient. Those qualities happen to be very useful for coders too. And for GMs. &c."
Judge Dredd says, "A good coder does more than just code for the RP - they do things like document, too, and program efficiently. A lot can do the first, but the other two are rarer."
Judge Dredd says, "Generally, a *good* coder is good at at least some of that other stuff too, like objectivity, effectiveness and decisiveness."
Ender says, "There's also the other coin. I have seen games where wizards are coders only."
Javelin listens to Ender.
Ender says, "The royalty are what you would call 'administrators.' Their purpose in life is to run the game, freeing the Wizards to code."
Ender says, "God help you if whatever you did comes to the attention of the Wizards, though."
Jonquil says, "That seems an odd division of things to me."
Ender says, "It is, indeed."
Colputt says, "Tes is the HeadWiz on our mush and I think she does real good with the objectivity, effectiveness and decisiveness, we need help with the hiring. How do you find these great admin?"
Javelin says, "That's certainly the model that most MMORPGs use. But you can bet that they consider their customer relations staff to be very important, even if their code is their core competency. They are (or should be) in the business of fun."
Ender nods. "But, keep in mind. Do most administrators, other than core-system coders, really need their Wiz bit?
Colputt says, "I like Enders model."
Ender says, "Are they writing to or controlling objects that aren't theirs?"
Jonquil says, "Well, there is something to be said for the security of that model."
Disraeli says, "depends how solid the admin commands are"
Impster needs his wiz bit to hear what the wiz say on the +wiz channel and what they don't say on the +staff channel :p
Jonquil nods and Disraeli and was about to say that.
Disraeli wizbits everybody at mine because the admin commands arent all that.
Ender grins. "Indeed. Usually games like that have heavily coded services."
Nymeria says, "We sort of tried to go with that and created a separate admin and staff flag, setting wiz or roy separately only as needed."
Javelin says, "Do they "need" the bit from a technical standpoint? No. Might they need it from an organizational culture standpoint? I'd say yes."
Kaspia was about to point that out, Javelin.
Ender says, "On my game, which isn't the ST game, there are three levels of staff. Wizards, Royalty, and Staff. Very few humans will get 'wizard.' They simply don't need it."
Javelin says, "But largely because we've conflated responsibility with database privileges."
Colputt says, "I think CobraMush tries to address those things."
Ender nodsnods to Jav.
Judge Dredd finds it useful to be able to find things, fix things and amend otherwise-locked things when people ask, personally.
Jonquil generally tries to code thing so that diddling with attributes directly is not necessary. "So, in a way I support the model - though it's more because the rest of our staff are not very code-savvy."
Ender plans on that, Jonquil. Administrators don't really need to be, if the coders support the administrators through systems code.
Jonquil says, "Indeed, and it's more secure, right? If the admin commands are well-written it prevents 'bad' data from getting into the system."
Javelin believes you could certainly make an approach work where being an administrator meant that you were on the list of administrators, normally had no special database privileges, but anyone on the administrator list could grant themselves those privileges as they needed them (and then would give them up after).
Jonquil guesses we are wandering a bit afield. "Sorry."
Ender says, "Freenode @"
Ender grins.
Javelin nods.
Javelin says, "Because then you don't imply, rightly or wrongly, that coders have a higher status because they need different privs for technical reasons."
Ender will endeavor to make it more secure. "This is the model ATS uses."
Ender nods.
Javelin grins at Jonquil. That's why it's a picnic. So we can be afield.
Ender says, "Actually, regular humans won't have wiz bits on my MUSH. Global Builders will."
Judge Dredd groans, throws a pikelet at Javelin.
Jonquil chuckles.
Ender says, "You need wiz power? Grab a builder."
Ender says, "CAn't code?"
Colputt says, "Jav did you see my other question?"
Ender says, "Why do you need database write access, then?"
Jonquil says, "I think I missed it, Colputt. What was it?"
Colputt says, "Tes is the HeadWiz on our mush and I think she does real good with the objectivity, effectiveness and decisiveness, we need help with the hiring. How do you find these great admin?"
Javelin says, "But to return to Good to Great (yes, I want to get back to that Colputt, one sec): If you have the right people, you shouldn't be spending much time on intricate security systems but on your core concept."
Jonquil says, "Oh, I'm not talking about crazy security, just basic input validation."
Javelin thinks one predictor of great admin is watching clueful players deal with other, less clueful players. "Disdain is bad. Making judgments about how to turn a possibly futile help situation into something that adds value for other players is good."
Jonquil says, "That's just basic IT risk sense."
Ender is technically talking about intricate security, or rather sane security practices. Least Permissions User Account.
Ender says, "And yes."
Jonquil inserts a 'good' in that.
Ender says, "When eople are all, "WTF NUB QQ GTFO," they need to go back to their 360."
Kaspia nods.
Dan has disconnected.
Ender says, "ONG U CANT EVN USE CHANS!"
Jonquil wimpers.
Javelin thinks re: Ender's system, btw, that such experimentation is good, and once people work out a good system like that, they need to shout it out so we all learn about it, can adopt it, and then can avoid reinventing the wheel and spending our time on non-core things.
Ender nods.
Ender will probably expand on the model when my time comes to lecture.
Javelin says, "It's not too early to think ahead to the Innovations in Text-Based Gaming Conference in October, by the way, for those of you who are doing intersting experiments that need more time to find out about. )"
Jonquil says, "Where is that being held?"
Javelin OBPLUG.
Javelin says, "It's based here. Last year we also had some sessions at MPUG."
Jonquil says, "Cool."
Javelin says, "Anyone else have ideas for Colputt on how/where to hire great admin?"
Jonquil assumes you mean the virtual here since he's not sure where you live corporeally. ;-)
Javelin nods.
Colputt says, "So then you generally try to hire from within the mush, based on how players help other players."
Javelin adds, sotto voce, that hiring is only part of the equation. We spend a lot more time talking about selecting admin than about training and acculturating them.
Jonquil says, "No, but we could use 1-2 more. ;-)"
Javelin nearly always hires from within, himself.
Tes says, "I managed to chase all of the admin away."
Jonquil nods. "That's a pretty common practice."
Judge Dredd says, "Not just on how players help other players, though. There's a few other things to take into account."
Javelin says, "School us, natty Dredd."
Colputt says, "training and acculturating" may be where we need to focus."
Damascus beatboxes....?
Kaspia is interested in the training aspect.
Judge Dredd says, "Do they work with your current staff, are they easy to get on with, do they naturally take responsibility and include people in what's going on? Do they actually *get* the theme?"
Javelin says, "*nods JD*. Re: Kaspia, Colputt, for exampel, the admin practice here has been to try to hire more than a single admin at a time. Hiring 2-3 in a cohort allows them, we think, to not feel like the solo noob, to have people to learn with, etc."
Javelin says, "Of course, hiring for an established game is different than for a new game, and for an RP game somewhat different than for a social, etc."
Starblade says, "That's for sure."
Judge Dredd nods. "Either way, if you can recruit from within the MUSH, it's much better to. You have some idea of what you're getting."
Mike has arrived.
Tes says, "The main problem I ran into, was they all seemed normal, willing to work and get along, then went all power trippie on me."
Javelin says, "We also try to keep our retired admin around in an advisory capacity when we can."
Impster says, "The problem I've seen with recruiting from inside the game is you can take your best players and bog them down where they don't RP as much as they did."
Javelin grins. "That's a classic problem."
Kaspia says, "That's something I've had personal experience with."
Kaspia grins.
Cheetah apologises for being massively idle, but bumps in noting that getting his WIZ bit here together with Viila and Walker was quite nice.
Starblade nods and agrees with Tes as that was his problem or they wanted to change the game concept to suit them.
Jonquil says, "Yeah, I was told by staff at one came they weren't going to make me an admin for just that reason."
Impster says, "And if someone says 'You /really/ don't want me on staff' they are more than likely right :p"
Jonquil says, "Which I was fine with, btw, I didn't want to be one."
Impster says, "Not that I ever said that.. "
Colputt says, "I do what I'm good at and try to stay out of the areas I'm not good at."
Tanaku has connected.
Javelin nods. "It's good to have good admin, but it's also good to have good *non-admin* players doing fun stuff, and being models. There are a few people on this MUSH who have refused admin bits because they were having fun being players, and I'm glad for that, because I like the stuff they do."
Tes says, "I got my first admin spot becuase I opened my mouth too many times on what was going wrong on the game, so they told me to shut up and start doing something about it."
Judge Dredd doesn't really have an answer for Tes, other than defining what's not acceptable behaviour from your staff and sticking with it. Don't be afraid to deal with the problem by firing them, if you have to.
Jonquil grins at Tes.
Judge Dredd hehs. Not really the best hiring practice ever. ;)
Impster says, "The real question I have to ask is what's the magic number for staff? I log into games and one of the first thing I do is compare a +who to a +Staff/all. If the +Who sits around 30 and the +staff sits around 10. I look for another game."
Cuiorne says, "Why Impster?"
Judge Dredd says, "Depends on the game, Impster. Some systems are more staff-intensive than others."
Javelin thinks that really depends, Impster. "With very good coordination, I think having 1 staffer per 8 active RPers or so could be a great ratio. Without good coordination, that's too staff heavy."
Jonquil says, "I would be leery too, Impster, but not categorically afraid."
Judge Dredd says, "Your average OT game needs fewer staffers than a WoD game to cope with as many people."
Impster says, "Because over the years almost every game that has a hugh number of staff is are awful games. Getting Staff to talk to each other about events is impossible alot of times. And waiting for someone to get back with you and no one else knows what is going it bugs the crap out of me. Then you have these "sphere" people that want to make their sphere the cool kids. Bad mojo. The staff has to work together for the whole game not just their part of it."
Javelin says, "I have to head out (as well Logger), but the conversation, of course, doesn't stop when I do. I look forward to reading the log of what I miss. Thanks for coming, and thanks to El for organizing this. I think just these regular chances to bounce around these ideas is going to have interesting long-term impacts."
Impster says, "Those games are almost as bad as my english :p"
Jonquil will be here a while and logging, fwiw.
Javelin gives the flywheel a goodbye push and waves.
Ender nods.
Judge Dredd waves.
Starblade says, "That's not always true, I was on a game that had 14 staff, we got along great.. the game died due to a database corruption that the server never saw or could fix and then morale dropped cause we had all worked so hard."
Javelin has disconnected.
Colputt smiles
Jonquil says, "Ow, that sucks."
Impster says, "there are execptions to every rule ;)."
Judge Dredd has found, Impster, that 2-4 staff per sphere is about right - it's defining your spheres that's the problem.
Thank you for visiting.